Video Testimony - Don Fisher (ex-FLDS) and Anne Wilde (Plural Marriage Advocate)

Today has been a study in testimonial contrasts.  Two witnesses, on either side of the argument, made appearances via video. 

The first, Don Fisher, was an ex-FLDS member, having left the faith at the age of eighteen.  He spoke as follows:  "I was born in Colorado City into an FLDS family.  I had 3 mothers and 33 siblings.  We lived in one house with 15 bathrooms.  I attended public school to Grade 5 before Warren Jeffs had it shut down and opened a church school.  We were taught that we had to be good to go to heaven, and should have lots of wives and lots of kids.  As soon as you're old enough to walk you're allowed to roam free, and you're off exploring the world on your own.  I didn't know anything different. 

I didn't get along with my Dad.  I was the only kid who wouldn't take punishment; I stood up to him.   I went to Canada (Bountiful) because my Dad wanted to get rid of me.  I was 14.  He said I was interfering with God's work by trying to stop him beating the kids.  I'd run away - one time I was away for 2 days - and in the FLDS you just don't run away. In Bountiful life with that many kids was not bad - there was a lot of friends, our own football team.  It was a sort of work camp experience.  I got paid $120 a month.  I really looked up to Winston Blackmore - he was almost a father figure to me. 

In Colorado City Warren Jeffs split up Dad's family.  Mom was assigned to another man.  She called me to come to the marriage ceremony - I was fifteen.  I stayed in the U.S. and had 16 brothers and sisters.  I started watching movies and going to town.  I was kicked out again, given $100 and spent a night in a motel.  Warren told me that I could go back if I promised to tithe to the church and be baptized.  So I did, and I really put on a show of being good - no movies, no music, no girls, no thinking, just be obedient.  I was told girls were snakes, and I should treat 'em like pigs, never to have anything to do with them.  I never hugged my brothers or sisters.  I was told that the whole purpose of a girl was to produce kids for God.  A guy's purpose was to have lots of wives and kids and be a man of God.

After the church split, after one more year in Canada, I got out completely.  If you're not good you won't get a wife.  After FLDS I have life - I didn't exist in FLDS.  Out of it I can do whatever I want. Up there you don't have options, we're treated like cattle.  Here you get to be a person.

My brother is a dentist, my sister is a doctor, other brothers are firefighters.  Everything they do has to conform to the needs of the church.

I don't have any relationship any more with Mom and the family.  After my second child was born, when he was about two months old, I met Mom in the street and handed the baby to her to hold.  She handed him back after 30 seconds, scared to death she would go to hell for meeting up with an apostate like me."

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Don Fisher was followed by Anne Wilde, an enthusiastic advocate of plural marriage .  

Her testimony took place in five parts, which can be found at 

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=anne+wilde+mormon&aq=f

One of the rare FLDS wives who is highly educated, Wilde is an author, with her husband, of 65 books on her way of life.

I urge you watch her testimony, and if afterwards you are sure you know who is telling the truth about polygamy, I will be impressed!

The Court will not sit tomorrow, and re-convenes on Monday 17th January.

Carolyn Blackmore Jessop - ex FLDS

Today Daphne Bramham reported in the Vancouver Sun:

"My biggest concern is that polygamy is being ignored."

That is how Carolyn Blackmore Jessop, a former member of a fundamentalist Mormon group, ended two-and-a-half hours of harrowing testimony about growing up in the community, escaping from it with her eight children and trying to deal with the trauma of leaving.

"Polygamy is not pretty to look at. It is nice that it is tucked away in a dark corner where nobody has to see its realities because it's creepy," she told Chief Justice Robert Bauman Wednesday.

Since leaving the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in April 2003, Jessop has suggested that decriminalizing polygamy might help.  But testifying Wednesday in the constitutional reference case to determine whether Canada's law is valid, Jessop said she is not sure that is the answer.  Even if polygamy were decriminalized, she said it is unlikely that the FLDS leaders would suddenly give women the rights that they are entitled to or provide the protection children deserve.

Their failure to recognize basic human rights including allowing women to get healthcare for themselves and their children has rarely been prosecuted and Jessop says it seems there is little appetite to do so now.

Quoting Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, she said that in her home state alone, it would mean putting 30,000 people in prison and 50,000 children in foster care.  But she said, ignoring the problems polygamy causes - young boys expelled as young as 13, arranged marriages of 14-year-old girls, plus all the violence and abuse that she witnessed - cannot be ignored.

"What the answers are, I don't know."

Jessop, whose grandfather founded the FLDS community in Bountiful, B.C., was married at 18 to Merril Jessop. a powerful figure in the FLDS who was more than 30 years older [than she]. She was his fourth of six wives and mother to eight of his 38 children.

Aside from her own abuse, Jessop told Bauman about her eldest son's cousin and best friend.  Sam Jessop was kicked out of the FLDS at 15. He'd been taken out of school at 10 and was functionally illiterate.  His brothers, who had also been excommunicated, took him in after he was disowned by his parents.  Sam tried to go to school, but he was failing and his brothers took him to work with them digging trenches and building walls.

One Friday after building a retaining wall, he told them it was his last.  Sam studied all weekend for a high-school equivalency test and then hung himself.

"He was just trying to make sense of his life," Jessop said.  But she said,"it's hard when your  parents throw you out with the garbage."

Jessop has written two books about her experiences.

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My Comment:  We learned today that the Prophet (God's representative on earth) made up his own rules.  Obedience was everything if FLDS members hoped to achieve salvation.  Carolyn Jessop had a burning desire to get a proper education, but was thwarted at every turn by the hierarchy.  All girls needed to think about was getting married and having babies (and Jessop had eight).  Education turned out to be a huge bone of contention between Jessop and her mother, who was an angry, depressed and frustrated woman, unhappy with her life.  Jessop's father asked the Prophet if his daughter could go to College and become  a doctor, but when she was married off at 17 to the 50-year-old Merril, all those decisions were handed over to him.

The more children that arrived in the family, the looser became the bond between her father and herself.  When Warren Jeffs became Prophet, he got rid of all the books in the library that were not about religion.  Her son Arthur was taken out of school at the end of Grade 7 at the age of 12, and put to work.  And the FLDS did not work 8-hour days!  Even in school, if the children did well, the husband received all the credit.  The consequences for saying 'No' were quite severe.  Husbands would use 'the water treatment' on little ones to keep them in line.


After her wedding her husband endeared himself to Jessop with the words "A dog is better than you are."  As a man with four wives and 34 children, his opinions were fully formed and immutable.  Jessop found herself in a household where the first wife stayed in her room all day long; the second had a breakdown when Merril administered a beating that landed her in hospital; the third wife was the favourite; and Carolyn lived in a distant relationship which stressed and terrified her.


She experienced several problem pregnancies, featuring the rupture of the afterbirth and premature deliveries.  FLDS women had no right to choose when to become pregnant, and her husband's response was "What woman wouldn't give her life for her baby?"  Merril was a man who could bring his wife to her knees by hurting his children.


I admire her courage at leaving the FLDS in Colorado City, and striking out with her children and only 20 dollars in her pocket.  The story of her escape is told in her book Escape, and a new volume, Triumph, continues the story.

Video Testimony of Mary Louise Mackert (ex-FLDS)

Mary Mackert is the sibling of Kathleen and Rena Mackert, whose testimony I described on 8th December 2010.

Mary now lives in northern Idaho, having left the FLDS in 1985.  I'm reporting her words as I heard them earlier this afternoon.  At times she became quite emotional, and her voice dropped to little more than a whisper, so it was hard to understand some of what she said. 

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"The FLDS believe they are the true Mormons. I was born near Colorado City.  My Mother was the third wife of my father.  Every generation from me back to Joseph Smith has practised polygamy.  I was my father's sixth child, and as the family grew he became less and less involved with us children.  I had 27 siblings.  When I was fifteen he took a fourth wife, who already had 4 children.  So you see there weren't enough hours in the day for a man to be a real father.  My mother worked full-time, and had to turn over every pay cheque to my father.

At an early age I was initiated into the 'Secret of Special Love' [i.e. child sexual abuse] by my Dad. I  found out that he had the same 'special love' with my sister, then with my other sister. He scared me.  I had to do it.  He was totally unavailable to us emotionally.  When I grew up I was attracted to abusive men.  

My mother was very strong.  She had seven children and taught me to love the Church, but because of her own hurt she too was unavailable to us emotionally.

Mom was the favourite wife, which caused a lot of jealousy.  Everyone was vying for attention and you were easily ostracized.  You had to be content not to have your innermost needs met.  Sarcasm was used a lot.

After the events of Short Creek in the fifties [when authorities attempted to break up the polygamous commune there] I couldn't sing any patriotic songs.  God Bless America?  No!  We were taught that the police were our enemies, and I was 13 years old before I lost my fear of them.  At school, I really wanted to wear a mini-skirt like all the other girls, but of course I had to wear an ankle-length dress.  So I got a mini-skirt and wore it under my dress.

Celestial marriage was taught to all the girls as they grew up.  You got married and had babies.  And obeyed your husband.  That was it.  By the time I was 13 or 14 I was ready for marriage because of these teachings.  When I was 17 I married a man who was 50 years old, older than my father.  Wilfred was right hand man to the Prophet, Rulon Jeffs; he had his own business and high status.  Although I had a driver's license I was not allowed to drive after I got married.  My husband was a very secretive man.  We had 5 boys, but I was not allowed to get birth certificates for them for many years.  I had no share at all in the financial aspects of the business, and was always short of money.  I had to ask for everything.  It was hard to be always asking for money for sanitary products, and I always had to give him the change.  He had definite dress preferences, and liked me to wear pastel colours with flowers all over them, and lace on the front.  As with my father, all my choices were now made for me by my husband.  I had three changes of clothes, underwear and all - that was it.

It wasn't about 'This is Love', it was lonely.  No discussion was allowed among the women - everything had to go to my husband.  There was no true intimacy.  Life was very competitive - there was a cold silent war going on every day.  There were altogether 35 children in the family - not enough hours in the day to father them.  He had no time for us, and I wanted a home of my own.  This wasn't a want, it was a need.  I decided to get a job, so I left and found work, but I was forcibly brought back by my husband's older sons and locked in a room for two days.  I decided to have no more to do with him or the FLDS.  There was an intervention by Rulon Jeffs, but it was just 'There, there girl' - a pat on the head.  

I had no money.  My husband gave me $20 'to get what you need'.  It was the first time I had ever been free to spend money as I wanted.  It gave me my freedom.  I left on 2 September 1985, and I remember that date like a birthday.

I had health problems - stress, hypoglycemia, diabetes - I had to keep off sugar.  When I ate I was all wound up, when I didn't eat I couldn't do a thing.  But I had chosen to live, and to live free. 

I wanted to get my High School diploma.  When they tested me, I came out in the 91st percentile for Math!  I got a job as a secretary, but that paid almost nothing and it was hard to live.  In those days it was shameful to apply for public assistance, but now they know how to make use of the system to get assistance money.  Eventually I went to College and got my Bachelor's degree.

My husband's last wife was mentally challenged, but she was good at repetitive jobs.  So they got her to do the laundry.

The girls got younger and younger when they married - some us young as twelve.  At that age they hadn't established a personality.

After I left I had trouble with relations with men and with women.  I was angry and hurt, disconnected from my feelings.  I'm content now, but your thoughts are a fixture.  I'm over my depression now, but I find men are still unavailable emotionally."

Expert Witness - Dr. John Witte Jr.

 In today's Vancouver Sun Daphne Bramham wrote:

There is a consistent, 2,500-year tradition of marriage as the monogamous union of two people and a 750-year tradition of polygamy as a crime that has, at times, been punishable by death.

That is the conclusion of John Witte, Jr., the director of the Law and Religion Center at Emory University, who is testifying in the constitutional reference case in B.C. Supreme Court that will determine the validity of Canada's polygamy law.

Witte traced Western marriage laws and traditions back to Greco-Roman times and then followed the evolution through to the 21st century when the definition of monogamous, dyadic union was expanded in some jurisdictions to include same-sex couples. He noted that throughout all of that time, harms to women, children and polygamous men themselves were regarded as both a cause and a consequence of the practice.

From Aristotle to the Hebrew Bible to Christianity's New Testament to Thomas Aquinas in the Enlighten to jurist David Hume to utilitarian philosopher Jeremy Bentham on into the 20th century, Witte says all have argued that polygamy is damaging both to individuals as well as to the society at large.  Among the harms Witte cited are: violence, intrigue, rivalry, envy and enslavement. Those harms are prevalent not only within families, but spread out to the society at large.

More specifically, the professor outlined how polygamy harms women, children, men and society noting that over the millennia the descriptions of the harms have been consistent.

The harms to women are: exploitation of the vulnerable including young orphans coerced into arranged marriages where they are often raped or battered; commodification of women who are sold or bartered by their fathers or guardians including divorced women and widows left destitute; isolation of women by confinement to their homes (i.e. harems) or by keeping them away from regular society because of prohibitions on working or being otherwise involved in society; 'instrumentalization' which reduces women to objects of seduction, lust or vessels for child-bearing; and, impoverishment because they can't participate in public life or because their husbands have less capacity to provide for them post-divorce or post-death. 

Additionally, Witte said polygamy "betrays the ideals of mutuality, love and devotion" that are associated with marriage and is "a violation of the fundamental dignity and rights of women."

The physical harms to children include inequity because of preferential treatment to another mother; rivalry and violence involving half-siblings as well as other mothers/wives; fewer economic and educational resources.

But Witte says philosophers and legal scholars over the ages have also written how polygamy harms the development of "democratic citizenship capacity." Children see their mothers are powerless and enslaved by a powerful man and they reproduce that behaviour in their own lives.

Men are harmed because they don't have equal opportunity to have a marriage partner. But over the centuries, Witte says polygamy has also been said to have induced a false appetite for patriarchy and inflamed the lust of men who continually want more wives.

For societies, the longstanding examples of harms have included child brides, sexual exploitation, assault and violence as well as a disproportionate need for social welfare because the polygamous men are not able to provide for their wives and children.

Examples of those harms that he pointed to in Jewish and Christian texts are the stories of Jacob and King David from the Old Testament. Both of the patriarchs were polygamous and the discord sowed in their families by polygamy led not only to jealousy, but incest, children sold into slavery, wives becoming slaves (and vice versa) and violence. In the story of King David, the inter-family murders eventually led to a civil war in Israel.

In his testimony, Witte went through the various epochs, referring to texts from the period. And among his conclusions is that there have been very few exceptions from Greco-Roman times to the present that polygamy has any merit.  But he said, "The longstanding consensus [of the harms] underscores that the prohibitions are both pre-Christian and post-Christian."

Witte was testifying as a witness for the attorney general of Canada, who takes the position that the law is valid and does not breach the constitutional guarantees of religious freedom and free expression.

Under cross-examination, Witte was questioned about his views on same-sex marriage. Witte was an expert witness in the high-profile Ontario case that ultimately resulted in the Supreme Court of Canada deciding that it was unconstitutional to deny same-sex couples to marry.

He noted that sodomy and prohibition on same-sex relationships were "an invention of Christendom" that were unheard of in Greco-Roman times.

Tim Dickson, a lawyer for the amicus curiae appointed by Chief Justice Robert Bauman to argue that Canada's law ought to be struck down, suggested that polygamy is also a Christian-inspired offence.  Witte rejected that characterization referring back to his early comments about Greco-Roman laws and traditions.

But if same-sex marriage is okay, why not polygamy? Dickson asked.

Because, Witte said, polygamy is not dyadic - it involves more than two people - and it provides none of the classical "goods" associated with marriage. Those include mutual companionship, love, protection against sexual sin or harm to the household as well as protection and support for vulnerable children.

Dickson then asked his opinion of a hypothetical, conjugal relationship involving three consenting adults. Would that be inherently harmful?

No, said Witte. Not every case exhibits harms.

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My Comment: 

Shortly after Dr. Witte  began to offer testimony this morning, I reached the conclusion that he is the most outstanding expert witness so far on either side.  A tall man, with an imposing presence, he took control of the situation, and gave what amounted to a two-hour lecture on the origins of monogamy in the western world, his words flowing without reference to notes, his composure assured but respectful, his delivery articulate but not condescending, totally at ease (when Judge Bauman sneezed, Dr. Witte wished him "Gesundheit, My Lord!"), and his vocabulary a marvel.

We were treated to a succession of seldom-used but totally precise and appropriate terms - leit-motif, polity, dyadic, normative import, disquisition, empirical, cruciform, nice (in its original meaning).  It was a joy to listen to someone at the top of his game , and I and many others present found him truly impressive.  As a practitioner of the English language, I consider him without peer.  

Video Testimony - Richard Ream (ex-FLDS)

I took a short detour this morning from Courtroom 55 to the room next door, where Inderjit Singh Reyat was to be sentenced after being found guilty last September of perjury in the Air India case. He received a sentence of 9 years in prison, minus 17 months credit for time already served in custody. I make no comment.

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In OUR courtroom this morning, we listened to testimony from a lapsed FLDS member

Richard Ream described a childhood in which, during school days, he “had to be careful about revealing FLDS teachings, because if the separation in the U.S. Between Church and State. I learned about sex through home, and was told that marriage was a sacred bond designated by God through the Prophet. We had no right to choose our wife, and I thought it was crazy that we had no input into the selection just because we were not allowed to put God aside in order to make our own choice. I was fourteen when I made the decision to choose my own wife, but I soon learned that marriage was reserved for the purest and holiest of men, and I was a rambunctious kid.

We were told that marriage could not be broken under any circumstances, and then Warren Jeffs came to town and started breaking up families and marriages, and moving people all over.

I handed over my paycheck every week to my Dad – I didn't keep anything. And we tithed to the church. People who have everything appreciate nothing – people who have nothing appreciate everything. Manual skills were considered more important for the End Times, so they didn't bother giving us a real education.

Today I drive a tractor-trailer. It was easy as a child to drive a car or a tractor. I worked 16-hour days, but I never reaped the proceeds of my work. I had a relationship with a girl at public school in my teens. My parents were upset worse than I had ever seen. Dad spoke to the Bishop about me; the Bishop said I need indoctrination, so I was sent to Salt Lake City. I lived for a year with an uncle, and made it two-thirds of the way through the school year, but I was expelled because of a relationship with a girl. At sixteen I was back home, got my driver's license, and was told by Dad that I was being sent to Canada, to Winston Blackmore's place. I found that Winston could communicate well with adolescents. He really appreciated the force of an attraction between a boy and a girl. It was possible to let Winston know that you liked a certain girl, and then be joined together in marriage by Winston. [So much for the chain of command through God, the Prophet and the Bishop!]

After my brother died, I tried really hard to become a good, upstanding member of the church – I really did. I became a 'model' person because I wanted a wife and kids, and I was honestly trying, but it never came about. My desire to be part of the church began to fade. I wanted to start a family. I don't think I made the wrong choice. At nineteen and a half I walked away. I felt I was in a dead end life.

Warren Jeffs had told me that I would never be assigned a wife. He told too many lies. I was a 19-year-old kid and I called him out, told him he was a liar and a wrecker of families. For the sake of my own life I had to go. Jeffs threw me out. I went through some heavy stress over the conflict in my mind between the principles I had been taught, and the life I wanted to live. I had been taught good principles and I was a little sad to leave all that. I don't know of any society that is one hundred percent righteous. I'm no longer with any organized church.

Life is just like a sandwich – the more you put in, the better it is. I think God has given me more than I deserve. Any time I come home from work and I got my son on one knee and my daughter on the other – don't matter how tired I am, I'll hold 'em till they fall asleep. I've learned to accept God's hand in my life. There's no way you'll ever see me trying to hold a family together with more than one wife.

The Lost Boys case was against Warren Jeffs, who told a church member who owed me money not to pay me for a lot of work I had done, because I was an apostate, and was being expelled. John Jessop was the youngest boy I knew to be expelled – he was thirteen. I don't know how they came up with the name The Lost Boys 'cos I'm very good with directions. Warren Jeffs got this word from God, or outer space, or from whatever planet he lives on, that he should not participate in the case, so we won by default. And I worked with lawyers to stop Warren Jeffs in his tracks.”

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My Comments: I wrote down Ream's testimony as closely as I could, but you'll have to forgive my writer's “adjustments”. It was a real pleasure to hear the story of one young man who had escaped his church and made a life for himself, by deciding for himself what he wanted in life, and not being forced by others in authority over him to do as he was told, for fear of divine retribution or banishment from the group. Somehow, he had taught himself how to think, and that skill is the one most feared by cult leaders.

Throughout his testimony Ream displayed a calm, cool demeanour, a delightful sense of humour, a genuine sensitivity, and a deep love for his family.

For a cogent assessment of the proceedings so far, check out

Expert Witness - Dr. Rebecca Cook

Decriminalizing polygamy would be a breach of Canadian obligations

by Daphne Bramham (Vancouver Sun)

Canada would be breaching its obligations under various international human rights conventions and treaties if it were to legalize or even decriminalize polygamy.

In its most recent report, the United Nations human rights committee described polygamy as “inadmissible discrimination against women and definitely should be abolished,” according to Prof. Rebecca Cook, who chairs the University of Toronto’s human rights law section.

Cook was testifying Thursday in BC Supreme Court in the constitutional reference case to determine whether Canada’s ban on polygamy is a breach of constitutional guarantees of religious freedom and freedom of expression.  

She told Chief Justice Robert Bauman that none of the treaties consider polygamy as anything other than harmful.  As a signatory to the treaties, Cook says Canada is not only obligated to eliminate gender discrimination but also take measures to eliminate stereotyping.  The reason, she says, is that the patriarchal structure of polygamous marriages — which are almost universally men with multiple spouses — “offends the women’s dignity” because it places women in a position of inferiority and is “inadmissible discrimination.”

Under cross-examination, Cook said none of the treaties deals directly with the issue of polygamy, although it is addressed in concluding comments by the committees charged with tracking states’ compliance.  In her summary of committee comments, Cook noted that the trend is toward abolishing polygamy as inherently harmful to the rights of women and children.

Should the court strike down Canada’s polygamy law, Canada would be the only western liberal democracy to decriminalize its practice.  However, it was pointed out by Ludmilla Herbst — a lawyer for the court-appointed amicus curiae who is arguing in favour of decriminalization — that Canada would still have a criminal sanction against bigamy.

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My Comment:  As we approach the end of a lengthy list of expert witnesses, Dr. Cook brought a wide breadth of knowledge of International Law and Conventions to the hearing.  The more I hear, the more I wonder what Judge Bauman's reasons will be.  I certainly don't envy him his task. 

Canada's law against polygamy puts into the spotlight just one of the many forms of "relationship" that have gained acceptance since the law was written in the 1890's.  If, as a result of this reference, polygamy and bigamy remain illegal, should not  polyamory and polyandry join them on the list of proscribed activities?

Dr. John Walsh - Mormon Scholar

John Fraser wrote in The Province today:

It would be an "abuse of power" if a woman was forced into a plural marriage, a Mormon scholar told a B.C. court Wednesday, as the case testing Canada's law against polygamy resumed following a three-week break.

Dr. John Walsh, a witness called by a lawyer representing fundamentalist Mormons, testified that Mormon theology decrees that people not be forced into polygamy and that "God would not recognize" the marriage if a woman was forced into such a situation.  "It would be an abuse of power and a deviation from Mormon standards," he said.

Walsh admitted his comments were restricted to the theological doctrines of Mormonism, and did not necessarily reflect what is actually happening in communities that practise the religion.

B.C. Supreme Court Chief Justice Robert Bauman has been tasked with deciding whether Canada's anti-polygamy law is constitutional.  The issue was referred to the court after two leaders in the fundamentalist Mormon community of Bountiful, B.C., — Winston Blackmore and James Oler — had polygamy charges against them stayed in 2009.

Walsh testified Wednesday that there is no dogmatic statement in the Mormon religion on the age of marriage for women and men.  He admitted under cross-examination he had heard of a girl marrying at the age of 13, but insisted that was a "deviation" and that most Mormons would frown on marriage at such a young age.

Walsh — who has a PhD in religious studies, but described himself as an "independent scholar" who does not work at a university — was allowed to testify as an expert in Mormon theology after his qualifications came under close scrutiny from several lawyers at the trial.


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My Comment:  Dr. Walsh spoke knowledgeably about the schism in the Church of Latter Day Saints that took  place during the 1950's.  It was during this period that positions hardened among the pro- and anti-polygamy groups, so that the church was left with a majority in favour of rejecting  polygamy, and the remainder choosing to continue its practice.  After the schism, too, "placement" marriages (i.e. decisions made by the Prophet about who should marry whom)  were abandoned by mainstream LDS members.


This afternoon, two videos were offered as evidence.  In the first, Brent Jeffs, author of the book Lost Boy, described his life growing up with Warren Jeffs as his father.  He experienced many difficulties, was eventually thrown out of the FLDS, and is now married and a father outside the religion.  We heard him say that his daughter will make her own life choices, and have no decisions thrust on her from above.


The second witness was formerly a wife of Winston Blackmore - #10 until Blackmore married two of her sisters a year later.  She desperately wanted to have a real relationship with her husband, but he rejected her every attempt at emotional intimacy, saying he didn't have time.  After to giving birth to six children with Blackmore, she left the FLDS feeling deeply frustrated by the unfulfilling life life she was forced to live. At one point she told the court that Blackmore had more than 20 wives about 60 to 80 children before she left.  Despite her experience at Bountiful, she told us she believes that the law against polygamy should be struck down.